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What makes a successful film score? What makes you prefer one composer over another, or say that a score is weak, or beautiful? Does a score need to be able to stand alone to be a 'good score'?
Your opinion counts!
Your opinion counts!
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Re: What makes it good?
Wed, November 12, 2003 - 11:40 AMyes i think a successful score should stand on its own! sometimes the music sounds good coupled with the action onscreen, but remove the visuals, and you have some pretty lame music.
on the other hand, a great musical score (that can stand alone) can make the audio-visual experience that much more awesome.
i remember fighting back tears in the opening sequence of 'spirited away' (sen to chihiro no kamikakushi) because i adore joe hisaishi's scores! watching the camera roll across the green field at the beginning of that movie was breathtaking BECAUSE of the soundtrack. -
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Re: What makes it good?
Fri, November 14, 2003 - 11:09 AM"Spirited Away" is an amazing soundtrack, I agree!
If the score works WITH the film, instead of against it, yet stands on its own and evokes memories of the film, it's well-done. Aesthetically though - what makes a good score is really subjective. I prefer the classic scores, with orchestras. Your "Raiders" marches and soaring theme songs, crashing cymbals and twirling woodwinds.
But with "One Hour Photo", the last soundtrack to rock my world - it's very atmospheric, lots of synthesizers and weird noise loops. It lived in my CD player for months afterwards. Also, I think these guys, Klimek and Heil, did the score for "Run Lola Run" - which is more of a techno-based thing. Personally, I'm not a big fan of pop music stylings in place of an orchestra or other band arrangement - but once in a while, a movie comes along that just demands a certain type of arrangement, you know? -
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Re: What makes it good?
Sat, November 15, 2003 - 6:01 PMI don't have any single criteria. There are some film scores that I like that aren't what many people like to listen to as well, as I do have a liking for more modern musical styles.
Originality plays a role. One of the main reasons I get excited when I hear a new film will have a Howard Shore score (especially his David Cronenberg collaborations) is because I have NO IDEA what it will sound like.
How the score plays in the film also is a factor. Sometimes I prefer a score away from the film, while other times I think that it is best enjoyed with it. While I liked what John Williams wrote for "Saving Private Ryan" as an album, I thought the film would have worked better without a score at all.
How the thematic material is introduced and developed over the course of the score is another factor which influences what I think of a score. Some film scores are more complex than others, and I really like getting into the subtleties.
I do happen to like well-written music either way, which is why I have heard a lot of film scores that I haven't seen the films to. -
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Re: What makes it good?
Tue, February 10, 2004 - 10:10 AMGotta agree with Bing on both counts: Spirited Away was one of the best scores ever. So was Mononoke.
And my biggest criteria of any score is two little words: TO PICTURE.
If it don't work with the film, it ain't a good score.
What makes it good?
As for Howard Shore, I find his use of chords to be superior to anyone (except possibly the original Chordmaster, John Williams). That's what sets him apart from all the other A-List guys. Melodically, he's similar. His dissonance systems aren't so different. He avoids "alternate harmonic systems." But when it comes to using chords to describe an emotion he humbles me and lays low even the greats of film history. I bow to his triads, his extentions, his augmentations, his diminutions, his additives and his substitutes, his germans, french and neopolitans. Howard rocks the chord!
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Re: What makes it good?
Tue, February 10, 2004 - 7:50 PM"What makes me choose one composer over another?"
Diversity and style. I like how Jerry Goldsmith (my favorite) calls himself a "method composer" - which is absolutely right on the mark. I love when you can take 2 scores from a composer's work and not even tell that they were written by the same person. Yet, if you're a fan you can notice the stamp of an artist's style.
"What makes a good score?"
If it stands on it's own beautiful completely fits the dramatic, comedic, or horrific elements of a film - then goes a step further and impresses you beyond your expectations. "Basic Instinct" is a fantastic example of these scenarios (they're apparently releasing the complete score in April - FINALLY!!).
Although, there are many scores out there that don't work as well away from the movie. This is usually what separates the A-List composers to the B-List ones.
It's also if the music can really embellish the sub-text of a movie. Your average "joe" really never notices this, but us film composer fans do, and musicians even more so.
Personally, most of my favorite scores are from when I was a child. So the music usually appeals to me on some sort of subconscious or emotional level.
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Re: What makes it good?
Thu, February 12, 2004 - 3:29 PMthis really is a preference thing.
I personally believe a score shouldn't have to stand on its own. Scores are, by design, made to work WITH the visuals, to go along, and even enhance the movie experience.
Some of the noisiest MV scores make me visualize in my head all the action. Say Face/Off, its a freaking rock albumn, but I imagine the camera movements Woo does.
I think a question that should be asked is, to the visuals need to be able to stand on heir own without music ;)
seriously tho. The questions you are asking cant be generalized. Its highly specific to each person. From everything to how they first came to realize they like film music, to their history/schooling in music or even film. To preferences in music in general, and even what instrument they play/prefer.
Also, "successful" is based on your POV :) I mean, some of the best scores are truly underated in the the public view, but critics like it....and some scores that win oscars/grammys are totally over rated. -
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Re: What makes it good?
Fri, February 13, 2004 - 12:32 AM>The questions you are asking cant be generalized. Its highly specific to each person.
I think that's exactly why the question has been asked, yo. I find myself agreeing with most of what is said here, but even most of that is shit I would never have thought about before some of you bring it up. We all got our criteria, but there's things we like that we don't figure in to or think to talk about...
And keep the flow going on your specifics. What moves you? Gimme a scene in face-off where the music elevates it. I wanna hear what when and why.
And hey, in this town we all know that what an Oscar really means is that the guy will get more work next year. Nothing more.
This is fun. -
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Re: What makes it good?
Fri, February 13, 2004 - 2:30 PMthe merry go round with the glockenspeil and main theme always comes to mind, especially the flash/wipe to Archer in his office, then the Typical MV choir to the gun on the desk.
The classic scene of Troy getting out of the car with the crane cam coming down but ramped up in frames for that classic Woo slo mo.
that whole cue has a great over the top action scene to go along with it.
Then Movies like Contact, the whole section with the second machine. The music always makes me picture that...tho that soundtrack I can listen to without visualizing.
Fight Club, tell me you dont think about that re-imagining of the exploding Apartment.
Then theres Bad Music. Pirates of the Carribean... The scene where wahts her name first sees the curse in action..... heavy metal orchestra..... I visualize the scene when I hear that now, and cant believe how terrible it is.
The Matrix, those Horn/bones cluster swells...green code comes down the screen :)
I always think of the Ice Sculptor/Snowing in Edward Scissorhands, when the choir kicks in full swing.
I know I'm only mentioning newer movies now, but I think thats kind of the case, alot of older (good) music really DOES stand on its own. Some of these cues of course stand on their own (actually they all do, whether you think they're good or not is a different story)
Personally I still think that the best scores are ones that work together with the visuals FIRST, then if they are able to stand on their own musically thats secondary....but thats where you start to get into musical preferences) -
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Re: What makes it good?
Fri, February 13, 2004 - 2:33 PMman why cant you edit posts in tribes,....or am I jsut missing something
I wanted to point out two scores taht worked pretty nicely but not everyone appreciates
Traffic, and Solaris. Both are highly synth scores, with droning soundscapes, but there are places that they really work well in their respective movies.
Some of these scores on their own, jsut dont stand up well to people who dont appreciate sound design.... does that make them worse scores? -
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Re: What makes it good?
Sat, February 14, 2004 - 12:10 AMSolaris is like Wendy Carlos meets Arvo Part. That one always works for me.
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Speaking of "Pirates..."
Fri, February 13, 2004 - 7:23 PMIs it just me or is there this one section that sounds stripped right out of "The Battle" from "Gladiator"? -
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sat, February 14, 2004 - 3:11 AMIt makes sense, Hans Zimmer was a large part of the production of that score and Klaus Badelt is one of his former assistants.
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sat, February 14, 2004 - 12:13 PMif you really want to listen to Klaus ripping off zimmer, you should take a listen to the equilibrium soundtrack, all the same samples from MI:2 were used,....even some of the guitar "colors". -
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sat, February 14, 2004 - 2:47 PMHahahahahahahahahahahaha!
The idea that somebody is stealing from Zimmer is the funniest damn thing I've ever heard.
Zimmer isn't a composer, he's an exec producer who takes credit for the work of his "assistants" and other underlings who write for him in shifts in his sweatshop. If Klaus sounds like Zimmer, it's because it was really Klaus in the first place. Incidentally, Zimmer didn't score "The Lion King" that was Alex Wurman's work. If you wanna know who did each of his scores, read the rolling credits and look for scoring assistants and orchestrators.
Except "Gladiator." For those of you who don't already know, that was Gustav Holst. He's dead now and can't complain. Besides, everybody rips off Holst. -
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sun, February 15, 2004 - 1:03 AMactually no. Klaus *did* rip off Zimmer in Equilibrium. you should take a minute to compare them, its pretty fucking funny.
Zimmer did do most of MI:2 himself. It as a quick score and I talked with some MV people (and people that do work with MV) about it. Lots of it was making samples of him playing guitar and a drum kit they sampled in a smaller room.
It was a "rock n roll" score. Not much in the realm of Orchestral stuff so it was easy to do. More like how Zimmer used to work way back in the day. (days of thunder, etc)
Get an engineer, get a sound desiner, only now, add Lisa Gerrard to improv on stuff, and mish mash colors together....find a melody...and WHEEEE!...Look its Tom Cruise :) (I actually like on of thee cues on that sound track alot tho)
Klaus doesnt have a voice at all IMO. He probably just re records whatever was used in the Temp track. (just like Zimmer does I'm sure nowadays...except its temped to his otger work). Really take a listen to Equilibruium and compare it to MI:2, there are jsut straight SAME MUSIC bits, and totally shows you that all it was, was a bunch samples to create "colors" they mashed together, and tossed on heavy electric guitars.
I dont think Klaus has really been given a chance to "Score" somethign... I think its mostly been quick and dirty throw togethers. (wait did he do dungeons and Dragons?.. I forget..but whoever that was, it was a JW rip off, if it was Klaus, then he for sure is a rip off artist)
BTW, I'm not saying that Zimmer does ALL the work and has always done most of the work, just that I'm pretty sure he did quite a bit of it on MI:2 (even tho alot of people contributed), but we get into dangerous territory here..
like people who complain about Elfman not writing the scores, only melodies, which is untrue nowadays, all that junk is based on old out of date news.
or gasp, JW, who most people would have me shot if I said anything bad about. -
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sun, February 15, 2004 - 12:25 PMAll the criticisms of Elfman are purely jealosy. Always have been. The only thing bad I can say about him is that when he gets lazy (on those rare occaisions) we all know it. Otherwise, he's one of the best. Top five working.
My information about Zimmer comes from those who have worked for him and some still do. He's like a larger version of Saban.
But you're right, when he can do it with samples and guitars and keyboards, his work is fine and it's usually him.
He just bores me most of the time. "....oh here's the part where it's supposed to be exciting. Oh, here's the french-horn sample, he want's us to feel heroic...." I'm just not fond of his "voice." He sits on the line of not-quite-good at "groove" scores and not-quite-good as an orchestral composer. It's like eating a Hostess cupcake and wishing for a REAL pastry. It ain't Jerry Goldsmith and it sure ain't the Chemical Brothers. So what am I missing?
And I defend Klaus, not because he's good. But because he could use the same old boxes WE all use and make a score that would take an audience along for the ride in "Pirates." There was nothing in there that most students couldn't have done. And his MIDI realizations were crap. Espescially the flutes. Like he'd never heard a real flute player before. All coming outta that Roland box. There weren't more than 5 minutes of "real" instruments in the whole score. I hope they didn't pay him for an orchestra. BUT it got the job done. Took the audience on a ride.
But now you're telling me that he wasn't just some first-timer they grabbed 'cause he's cheap? Hmmmmmm. -
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sun, February 15, 2004 - 10:44 PMAs far as I know, Klaus only did one other score, Equilibrium , but worked at MV for a while as an assistant to Zimmer.
He was DEFINITELY cheap for Equilibrium, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten any MV guy to do that score, the budget was pretty low for that flick (then again there are some low budget and direct to video releases that have MV scores....so I dunno what thta means).
As for Pirates, they used Klaus mostly cuz he was free to do it (havent all the old MV guys left MV now? Rona isn't part of MV, as well as HGW and Powell I thought), after firing. Silverstri (God I would have loved to hear that score...Tomb raider 2 just bored the crap out of me). But obviously they had everyone and their Grandma working on the score because it had to be done so quickly (which is one reason it sounds like a shitty mix (atleast to me)
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sun, February 15, 2004 - 4:48 PMHey all the best music and plays are 'stolen' from other artists nowadays. There are tons of wonderful scores that are based off of classical artists.
And of course, Holst rules! -
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Sun, February 15, 2004 - 5:45 PMThat's not just "these days." But we weren't talking about the best of anything. We were talking about Zimmer.
There's a big difference between riffing on a great work and sampling it or using it note-for-note. Even sampling has it's own aesthetic. And sure, John Williams riffed on Holst. Don't we all. But to just drop in a large portion of "Mars the Bringer of War" unchanged is pure laziness. Horner did it in his Zorro score and it was just as lame then. Which part of Gladiator did Zimmer actually write? And stealing from your underlings is just poor taste. Give credit where credit is due. Except Zimmer will take credit for anything that anybody writes, even if he's not even attached to the project. What will you say when he's rakin' in the royalties from YOUR music?
You gotta come up with something better than that. Making excuses for Zimmer's lameness won't convince me that he's anything more than a snake-oil salesman. -
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Re: Speaking of "Pirates..."
Tue, February 17, 2004 - 12:56 AMI'm not saying Zimmer is the most fantastic composer in the world (far fro it),
all I'm saing is Klaus DID distinctly rip off Zimmer himself on Equilibrium.
I'm not defending Gladiator at all. Its a great rock album to listen to when I'm cleaning and the vacuum cleaner is on.
I think jsut about everythign associated with that movie is over-hyped and over rated (in the movie itself), except Juaoquin Pheonix saying "I'm terribly Vexxed", which has got to be one of the best lines to quote.. right up there with "Shop Smart, Shop *S*Mart"
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Unsu...
Victims of Soundtrack thieves:
Mon, February 16, 2004 - 2:39 PMStravinsky
Prokofiev
Wagner
Holst
did I miss any? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Victims of Soundtrack thieves:
Mon, February 16, 2004 - 4:45 PMSorry, I missed what you are referring to.
Unless it's our favourite sources to knock-off.
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